Despite what I said above, there's a limit to how far a thread should be allowed to digress.

Bob: This thread just sent me an e-mail with a sound-clip. It sang: digress me, moless me one more time


So don't worry - if it digresses too much, I suppose Mama Will Bark... (she has to, since I stopped barking some time ago).


Bernhard.

[Chuck Granata]

This info may help place the common practice of listing "artists" as songwriters on tunes written in the 1940s, 50s and 60s.

Often, big artists - such as Frank - owned pieces of music publishing companies. Of course, songpluggers (music salesmen) were always trying to entice the big vocalists to sing their company's songs; one of the ways that a singer or band could be persuaded was if they were "cut-in" on the profits. In order to share in the mechanical fees (the profit from usage of the song itself), this would involve listing the artist as a contributor to the lyrics, whether they actually had a hand in writing them or not. Cutting an artist in for a percentage of the profits was profitable for the music publishing companies: if the song were a hit, they'd make money, and the volume would outweigh the extra cost of paying the artist's portion of the publishing rights.

It made sense for an artist as popular as Frank Sinatra to own not just the performance rights (the record/radio/film royalties to their recordings), but the mechanical or publishing rights as well. If an artist owned a piece of the song and they recorded it and it became popular, they shared in the profits on both ends. The publishing/mechanical rights to songs are hugely profitable even today: it's what drives the profit for the estates of Cole Porter, the Gershwins, Rodgers & Hart/Hammerstein, etc.

Sometimes, though, the artists did actually contribute to the writing of a song. In Sinatra's case, Sol Parker (who wrote "This Love of Mine") explained that Frank did have a hand in writing the lyric. On "I'm A Fool to Want You," Joel Herron told me that Frank didn't actually write any of the lyric: when he recorded the song at Columbia, he changed a few words extemporaneously as he sang the song in the studio, and Herron and Jack Wolff had a sidebar meeting in the studio, and decided to add his name to the song as Frank's lyrical change improved it. (By the way, Joel Herron is healthy and spry - well into his eighties - I had lunch with him in NYC a couple months ago.)

I'd say that in most of the cases where Frank is credited as songwriter (at least the ones in which I've spoken with the songwriter[s]), it was a cut-in rather than an intense collaborative effort. Now, when it came to the ARRANGEMENTS, in many cases, Frank was involved every step of the way...

Chuck Granata

P. S. Interesting note: "Close to You" was a song that was pitched to Frank by music plugger Ben Barton in early 1943. They formed a publishing company together - Barton Music - and "Close to You" was one of the first tunes FS recorded at Columbia a few months later.

[Ronald Sarbo]

Considering such a prolific output Sinatra has his name on only a handful of songs as a composer.

Crosby also had his name on a small number of songs notably "I don't stand A Ghost Of A Chance With You."

Al Jolson had himself "cut in" on as many of his hits as possible.

Chuck, Thank you for that insight. Until you stepped in, this thread was going to the dogs.

[Chuck Granata]

Originally posted by Bob in Boston:

"Chuck, Thank you for that insight. Until you stepped in, this thread was going to the dogs."

Well, Bob, I realized that if I didn't add something remotely scholarly, my Mama Might Bark! Just call me the "Tennessee Newsboy..."

Chuck

[Chuck Granata]

P.P.S.

I think Eddie Cantor also had a huge cut-in deal; I remember seeing tons and tons of sheet music one time, all signed by Cantor, on which he was listed as songwriter.

CLG

[Ronald Sarbo]

I believe Sinatra and Crosby considered "cutting in" to be unethical and discouraged this practice as another form of "payola" which they also took issue with.

[Chuck Granata]

I would agree with this assertion, although I can't recall seeing either quoted on the subject. But, the fact that there are so few tunes with their names on them is indicative of this.

Chuck

Didn't FS write a couple of verses?

Also, did he ask Tom Adair to write new lyrics to EVERYTHING HAPPENS TO ME? Jus curious.

I heard FS had revised lyrics written for him for THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES.

Greetings,

Steve

[Chuck Granata]

Steve,

You raise a fascinating point regarding the many sets of lyrics for any particular song. I never had the chance to speak with Tom Adair, but Matt Dennis (one of his longtime partners) explained to me that when songwriters wrote a song, they often wrote many more lyrics than would typically end up in a finished 32-bar song. He said that the reasons for this are numerous: in a show, the melody/song might be used at more than one point, and might require a different lyric than its first appearance, or the writers might submit a multitude of choices, and narrow them down as the production of the show progressed.

It wasn't unusual for Sinatra to request that a songwriter alter their lyrics; when he recorded "I Can't Get Started" for 'No One cares,' he asked Ira Gershwin to come up with some revised lyrics. Interesting, though, that Frank only used a few lines of Ira's "rewrite" - it is likely that Sammy Cahn further tweaked the lyric, and Sinatra recorded more of what Sammy wrote than Ira!

As most Forum members know, Sammy Cahn prided himself on his lyric witticism, and on his speed. From the mid-1940s on, he created parodies and substitute lyrics for Sinatra and others - but mainly for Frank, who'd alter the lyrics to one of his standards (such as "The Lady is A Tramp") if he were honoring someone by singing at a testimonial or other public event.

It is certain that Sammy reworked a lot of lyrics for the "L. A. is My Lady" album, including his own "Teach Me Tonight." Sammy also altered the lyrics to "Until the Real Thing Comes Along," substituting "...I would drive the Chrysler, leave the Rolls for you" to suit Frank's penchant for driving unassuming Chryslers. I am sure that he also, with Frank's suggestions, reworked "Mack the Knife." I am not sure about "Thanks for the Memory" - I'd have to check with someone on that to know what all of the original lyrics to the song are.

I am always pleasantly surprised when I hear fresh lyrics to an old standard - it's like finding a treasure among junk in someone's attic!

Chuck Granata

Chuck, as far as I know, it was the original lyricist Leo Robin (1895-1984) himself, who re-wrote parts of "Thanks For The Memory" especially for Sinatra's album project, upon request.

(Bob Hope of course had kept changing the words over the decades). While generally, it would indeed be no surprise if Sammy Cahn had a hand in it as well. Cahn was a true genius, in my opinion, and the wittiness displayed on many of the 'special lyrics' he wrote for FS's tribute parodies is priceless, in my opinion.

Bernhard.

[Domenico]

Did Frank ever think of releasing an LP of songs that he would write by himself and not get from another songwriter.
I mean "Im a Fool to want you" was brilliant.

I just wonder if he ever wanted to make an LP of songs written by himself?

Any one know?

Domenic

I'm a Fool To Want You, I'll Never Be the Same and several of the other songs that he contributed to weren't single handedly written by him you know... I don't know acctually how much he contributed to them yet it seems to me that Frank's department wasn't writing songs. It was interpretation of the lyrics.

However, the idea of Frank writing is intriguing. It could be a window into who and what songwriters he would take concepts from.

This has been discussed before; see the thread: Did Mr. Sinatra ever write one of his hits?.

As explained by Chuck Granata in that thread, it was common practice for singers to be "cut-in" on a share of a song's royalties by giving them false writing credits. However, this was not the case with "I'm A Fool To Want You." As explained by composer Joel Herron in Will Friedwald's book, Sinatra! The Song Is You, FS changed the song's lyrics spontaneously in the recording studio. Herron and lyricist Jack Wolf were so impressed with Sinatra's changes that they invited him in as a co-writer.

[Nancy]

Thanks for the bump, Boston Bob.

I may be exposing my ignorance, so let me apologize beforehand. But can someone tell me what bumping means.

No need to apologize, Tom. This question arises often. In fact, Nancy just answered it in another thread: http://sinatrafamily.com/forum/showt...436#post361436.

Perhaps this should be added to the F.A.Q.?

[Nancy]

You're right about that. The mod squad and I are supposed to make a list but we never have time to do it.

Here is the explanation:

What is a bump?

If you like a particular thread and you feel it may be of interest to other members, all you have to do is post to it and it will come to the top of the new threads page. That is known as bumping the thread up.

Another reason to bump a thread is if you are concerned it may be sent to the archives for lack of activity.

[Mark B.]

I reckon Frank 'wrote' each song he ever sang.Not in as much as the the composition of the tune or the lyrics that were written but in the way he worked them both in the timing of his words and the phrasing of them.
He was in awe of the songwriters and lyricists of the great songs he sang.At every live performance,even when getting on in years,he insisted on confirmation of song and lyric writer before nearly every number when it would have been so much easier just to get into the song.A modest man eager to give credit where it is due.