Folks:

I don't mean to digress from bright and cheery topics at hand. But I've always had personal questions that I have no business asking the Sinatra family about the period immediately following Frank's passing.

Due to the fact that his children were not called and were thus not able to be there at the end, this would give his spirit just cause to make a final bow to his immediate family in order to put them at ease in their sorrow and grief over his loss.

Theories concerning people whose spirits return after they are gone mainly apply to those who saw violent ends or who lived unhappy, wasted lives and come back to revisit the living as a way of telling us that "I'm ok and everything's alright"

However, families who were simply very close also tend to experience supernatural occurances following the passing of a loved one. So why not someone like Frank, whose flesh and blood were not allowed to be there in his final hours?

When Frank left us it was like losing my pop all over again. I was very close to my own dad, who I lost in '96 to lung cancer. Before he met his end, I used to be an eternal skeptic and label people who believed in the spirt world as nutcases.

But I experienced unexplained paranormal phenomena after I lost him and still do to this day since I still have his ashes. So now I am no longer afraid of death as a result. And it has altered my whole belief system.

I wonder if Our Father Of Song ever made a post life encore apprearance for his kids. The mere thought gives me a warm feeling inside. With the wonderful life he lived, he must have some spirit in the afterlife. In these trying times, we need great spirits like his.

K. A.

Sorry if you think I'm being rude, but I just can't help but mention this....

<<I've always had personal questions that I have no business asking the Sinatra family about the period immediately following Frank's passing. >>


Did you not know that the Sinatra Family (at least Nancy Sinatra) reads the posts on this forum?... If you truly felt you had "no business" why would you bother with the post?

I am trying really hard to understand the possibility that you are coming from a good and decent place with this post. It seems to me however, that you're looking for an answer to a question.

I suppose since this is a democratic forum you have every right to your post, as I have every right to disagree with it. I just think it's kind of tacky. Perhaps I'm being too sensitive. My own mother has passed away, perhaps that's why.

I'm really sorry to hear that your father passed away. I am also sincerely sorry to hear that when Frank died you felt as though your dad was passing away all over again.

I just felt the need to mention that you could have made your point about the "after-life" without brining up Frank Sinatra.

Call me an over-sensitive, super-defensive freak...I see something inapropirate and insensitive about your post.

Kelly

[johnofphilly]

I had a post-mortem encounter of sorts, with my father, with whom neither of us had a kind word or thought for each other. I don't want to bore you with his double-crossings, and I know in the spirit world I must learn forgiveness. I've made some progress... It was a few years ago Christmas Eve. I was driving on the famous Pulaski Skyway between Newark and Jersey City. His creepy presence was alongside of me in the car - 35 years prior our positions were reversed in a different car on that same bridge on a sunny summer day. I turned to his invisible but undeniably present spirit and said: "I'm taking care of Mother's welfare and fixing your many property maintenance and investment mistakes. Now, get the hell out of my car." And with that, he slithered off like the 'gator in the Oil of Olay commercial.

A certain over sixty singer in her autobiography "Somebody to Love" in the "Exits" chapter relates how she audibly heard her deceased mother call out her name then disappear.

Kelly asks if you really should raise this stirring question to Nancy.

Such a personal matter is something many would decline to answer and keep to themselves, especially if they cherish the departed. Of course, in my case, neither action (cherish or decline to comment) is the case.

impossible for the two girls or Jr. to answer.

Think, about the idea, Hank. How would they look, as keepers of his legacy,
if they spoke of such visions? While they may be respected in the Catholic community, other sectarians and agnostics would scoff at them for it.

Your raising this question is food for thought, but to expect an answer
(not that you necessarily do) would be unrealistic.

If our spiritual hero should appear to anyone in a less-than-peaceful way,
it would be - ... Aha, let's not go there.

Kelly, you're being too sensiitive, getting personal and changing the subject. Your kneejerk response is foolish. Everything I say in this forum comes from the heart. You come across as yet another one of those conservative politically correct people who are easily offended at the slightest philosophical diversion from the average run of the mill post. So you need to chill out and take a valium.

I believe Frank would welcome all forms of curiousity on his life and death so long as they were not an assualt on his character. The man was about HONESTY. And that is what I practice in these posts. If I can be half as honest in my life as he was, and make people think and not fear the great unknown because of it, then I have done a service to the common good.

We will all make the journey someday. What I find fascinating is the evidence I've witnessed that the end is not really the end. The revelation of the latter as it pertains to celebrity is not tacky. This is Our Father Of Song's public town hall and not a tabloid newspaper. Yet I find it ironic and hypocritical that many people act as if I'm prying and yet still buy the supermarket rags.

Peggy, the famous are put on a pedestal and not treated like real people. If anything, that is the problem. Their right to privacy in their personal lives guards against sensational or defamatory journalism meant to sell papers. But a warm fireside chat inquiry from a fan who has spilled his guts here and made enemies to defend his legacy is not out of line in any way, shape or form.

I asked it within the context of my own personal experience because I was very close to my own father. If anyone's life or death experience can let us better understand the things in this world for which we do not have answers, then that information is crucial to all of us and should be public knowledge whether we're talking about a music giant or a bum on the street.

What is it with this place? Would Frank approve of all the easily offended stuffed shirts here? I think a new chat room for people who are not afraid to speak their mind is on order, a fan's Rat Pack room as it were. There are too many people taken aback by the slightest trace of absolute honesty. Too many stiff upper lips and not enough willing to let down their hair and tell it like it is.

We are a family of fans who should not make verbal matches out of every post we don't approve of. I didn't ask for a quote or story to sell. I posed a simple yes or no question and not a personal infringement. Questions of life and death are not tacky. The only tackiness I see here is the personal attacks aimed at me by anyone and everyone too conservative and narrow-minded to allow the power of communication to run its course and let truths be told.

Did it ever occur to anyone reading this that if fans were privy to any supernatural events surrounding FAS's passing that it might help them cope with the loss of a loved one in their personal lives? We all live vicariously through the blessed few whose lives are held sacred and meaningful. Why can't we reach a common ground in admitting shared experiences that might help us progress beyond the fan worship stage so as to treat them like human beings like the rest of us? In life and in death.

K.A.

Ray Charles says it best..You only live but once and when your dead your done..So,let the good times roll!

Folks:

A encore of Frank's spirit would be a powerful afterlife confession to the love he had for his children who were cheated the chance to be by his side at the end. Issues of the supernatural are not secrets to be ashamed of. It happens to many of us who are not famous who do not treat such topics as an assault on privacy. The great among us go to the bathroom, they die and even have spirits. Frank who was a restless soul in life, is a prime candidate like anyone else.

I don't stop being myself simply because someone is famous. I am honest with everyone and am not intimidated by celebrity or greatness. I try to treat everyone as my equal. I can praise Frank as much as treat him as a human being. The same questions I've asked here I've asked friends and family members. It's not as if I expect an answer. I'm simply voicing a curious topic that touches us all.

Whether they like it or not, famous people belong to all of us. It is the price they pay for seeking to stand out from the crowd. And believe me, it is a much smaller public debt to pay than that of average citizens who live sedate, subserviant and anonymous lives in thankless service jobs. People like firemen, policemen and war heroes who too often find fame in death and not in life.

Frank would agree with that because his own father was a fireman with burns to show for it. If Frank had an aversion to revelations of his personal life it was because he was concerned with the printing of lies and false innuendo and not the reporting of known facts. And so if he had a spiritual ressurection, he would want the world to know about it. Because more than anything, it would be the ultimate testament of his love for his children. Nothing more, nothing less.

K. A.

[voice1]

I for one do not think you were getting personal with Hank. You were simply expressing your opinion.

I found Hank's query to be a bit unusual but interesting from his perspective. I also believe that the man needs to be able to be frank and blunt which is how he is made. It would be nice if he had some TACT.

TACT for my purposes is something that must be learned. The best definition of the word comes from the Scots I believe when they say that a person with TACT is one who can call somebody a SOB and have that person thank them as they walk away.

I am tired of Hank's rants about knowing what FAS would say. I think he would be better off by starting his thoughts with something like "In my opinion, FAS would say....."

Just one guys opinion. Don't want to bully anyone around, tactlessly.

I understand that Knarf claims to be a writer. While I haven't been blown over by his wordsmithing, I am inclined to believe he's telling the truth. He has the same ability to blow nuggets of truth into incredible fiction. Much like a tabloid writer. You know the one at the newstand "42 paid witnesses can't be wrong"

Voice1:

A free exchange of ideas requires that you do not hide behind your perception of manners and politeness to attack the mesenger if you do not agree with his message. You do not use words like "tacky" or "tact" to address the topic at hand. There is no right and wrong here. We are all human beings and this is a conversation about the life hereafter and the passive elitist argument that some spirits are too famous to be revealed is beside the point.

Whoever you are, I'm not amused by your turn of phrase or blown away by your vendetta against me either. But don't kid yourself. If it were not for me, this place would be a little less interesting and just another cheezy fan worship site. With me it retains a sense of naked truth and unmasked humanity, even if the holier than thou politically correct snobs are offended. If it's tact you seek, then go visit a religious site.

Nobody in this world is better than anyone else. So I speak my mind freely. If anyone here deserved the last word, it was Nancy. But I can understand her side. I am never foolish enough to expect a response anyway. I work online, so my job affords me easy access. But Nancy may be too busy to hang out here. And to respond would make news. Too bad people tend to take the subject matter as a joke and not seriously. For that reason alone, even the truth in this case would amount to sensationalism. So we'll leave it at that.

K. A.

[voice1]

Knarf:

You absolutely have the right to speak your mind and ask questions. As I said, I found your comments at the beginning of this thread to be rather intriquing. I'm sorry for the deep loss you have felt for your father. I have personally experienced some of the same things you have in my own loss of family.

What I resent is that under "freedom of speech" you openly ridicule, lambast and spew knoxious venom on those who either challenge you or disagree. The same freedoms you espouse to own are minimized in others. I am not a politically correct nitwit who takes up causes of the week or uses this forum to rant about my opinions on politicians, mid-western values or to call people fools and other choice names.

What I am suggesting is that you encourage an open dialoque with people without judging them, without knowing them. I have no vendetta against you. You have done nothing to me or against me that would cause such a response from me. (with the exception of misquoting me to make a point about discrimination)

As for the excitement you claim to create, I will admit that I understand the management axiom that you should be controversial. Having people respond to your posts without fear of ridicule or name calling would be a terrific step in the right direction. You add value hear. So do many other people. Just recognize it, don't feel like you own the very best opinion and respect those who deserve it.

In other words, use your obvious talents to encourage, not disparage. We will all benefit.

Yes, Hank, it would be nice if everyone, including our hosts, could cozy up to a convivial fireside gathering in an intimate setting and share. And I know that our hosts are nice, unassuming, down to earth real people who hate the sh** that goes with this celebrity crap.

But of course, if you're running a business, there are conflicts of interest involving "no comment" diplomacy. The pressure must be awful, I know I'd blow it. Just imagine, your every belch and scratch over the past 40+ years recorded and viewable at any time. Even if - given such parameters - I had Nancy's heart, I'd have Garbo's mind - as in Go Away "I vant to be alone."

So if in fact they have had a comparable experience, their not being at liberty to share it may have nothing to do with a high horse as much as simple business diplomacy.

*******

On a side note still pertinent, in "we remember", Nancy demonstrates something you refer to above, Hank. Specifically, the idea of helping someone through sharing counsel to deal with such a loss.

Nancy responds to Fiona Blue Eyes with good advice about addressing the void with personal actions. Here is a caring person who demonstrates the very sharing to which you refer.

[Fred F]

Nancy really helped me get through that September 11th stuff with her inspirational words about her belief in God. She is a very special person.

[voice1]

Fred and Peggy:

Reading much of this helped me with the loss of so many of my colleagues in the WTC.

I'm convinced there is a beyond and there are people or a supreme being looking after us. My own experiences are too personal to post anywhere but it's nice to know others have similar stories.

You wrote:

<<Everything I say in this forum comes from the heart. You come across as yet another one of those conservative politically correct people who are easily offended at the slightest philosophical diversion from the average run of the mill post. So you need to chill out and take a valium. >>


You come across as being extremely judgemental. I appreciate the fact that you think you're so honest. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I applaud honesty. My point is that I think your post was insensitive. Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote. You obviously didn't "get" what I was trying to say.

What I wrote was my PERSONAL, OBJECTIVE opinion. If you're so hot on honesty, you would appreciate the fact that I wasn't affraid to HONESTLY reply to your post.

This has nothing to do with me being "politically correct". It has nothing to do with me or you. My concern lies with someone who has lost their father and has graciously provided the world with a forum to honor and discuss that man's legacy. You could have made your point without getting personal...I understand you have questions....I just don't understand where your manners are.

You wrote:

<<What is it with this place? Would Frank approve of all the easily offended stuffed shirts here? >>

Frank Sinatra had class. Enough said.

That's the last I'm going to say because I personally do not wish to contribute to this thread any longer.

Kelly

[voice1]

Well said, Kelly

[ARIES3032]

Kelly & Voice 1 I am in complete agreement with you. This person who writes Frank Sinatra name backward does have geniune feelings for others, especially the Sinatra Family.

[Nancy]

You all have passion and the ability to express your most
profound feelings. Please try to be more patient with each
other. This is an open forum, one of the special privileges
we enjoy in our great country.

Let's do everything we can to keep it open and free. Let's
agree to disagree.

This is a very interesting and thought provoking thread.

[Barry]

Frank was the most interesting and thought
provoking person the world has seen..........
Barry.
xxx

Talk about getting hot and heavy. I don't always know what is appropriate and what is not. If what is said or asked is hurtful to another, it is probably not appropriate.

As to the thought of an after life or any experience communicating with a loved one who has passed on, scientifically I find it very unlikely. On an emotional level I sure hope it exists.

When my father passed away in 1972 of a heart attack at the age of 51 I was 20 years old. I thought about life after death quite a bit. I never truly believed it and to this day have not seen any evidence it exists. That is not to say it doesn't exist. I was very close to my father. At the time of his death he owned a 15% interest in a FedMart Franchise Store in El Cajon, California. He left that and a $25,000 life insurance policy to my mother.

In 1976 my mother invested $5,000.00 in a new business, a warehouse club started by FedMart founder Sol Price. The new business was to be called Price Club. That first year they came very close to closing their doors a failure. However, Sol Price made some adjustments in the format and a decade later the now phenominally sucessful Price Club was the leader in a new retail industry. That one share of stock my mother purchased for $5,000.00, had she kept all of it, would be worth over two million dollars today. Fact is she sold some and her estate was worth about 1.3 million when she passed away September 10, 2000. After taxes and sharing the estate 50/50 with my only sibling, a sister, I inherited about half a million dollars.

Why am I telling you this? Certainly not to brag. It is not that much money by todays standards, but it is certainly better then a kick in the butt.

The comparrison between what my father left and what my mother left in material things is in stark contrast. I was also very close to my mother.

CONTINUED:

Now that you know something of the relationship I had with these two parents, at least in a monatery sense, I will tell you I miss my father terribly. I do not especially miss my mother. Whe had a mean streak in her. My father was very sweet. My mother was vendictive. Even though she left me well off when added to what she had given me over my lifetime, and I invested, there were always strings attached.

I have never had any life after death encounters with either of these parents I was close to. I really don't care to have one with my mother as I would tell her off for some of the mean things she did during the last three months of her life as she was dying from breast cancer. I would very much like to ask my father advise from time to time, but I can not.

You want to hear politically incorrect? What happens at a cemetary or a mousoleum 100 years after the death of someone when the operators know there are no more family members around? Do they dispose of the remains and resell the plot or crypt? I'll bet they do.

This whole thing is such a deep subject I could probably write a book on my feelings alone.

Bottom line is although on the surface the curiosity shown in Artanis Knarf's original post is fine, addressing such a personel and direct question to the suriving daughter of any person who has passed away is a little rough around the edges, even if it was not intended to be.

Perhaps bringing up the subject is not being sensitive to the feelings of a dead mans daughter. It certainly is honest communication at a gut level. If you have that kind of relationship with Nancy, then perhaps it is ok, but then better discussed in private. It is not my place to judge or ajudicate, I can mearly observe and comment.

How I wish I could talk to my father one more time. Although I was called immediately upon his heart attack, he never came to again. Fifty eight hours later, after being in a coma, he succumbed to the original cardiac arrest. The actual cause of death was multiple organ failure.

CONTINUED: AGAIN