[S V PELUZIO JR]

Wow, this is the first time i heard about MFSL.
I am outdated

[mlutthans]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Simmons

I recall that the Mobile Fidelity guys were doing good things on LP in the 70's but I never understood why their so highly rated masters were not digitally transposed to CD when the first Sinatra CD's were placed on the market.

As I understand it, there is no set of MFSL masters from the LP issues. They took Capitol's stereo masters (in other words, a 2nd generation tape, mixed down "back in the day" from three tracks to two) and cut the LP lacquers directly from those Capitol tapes. In other words, the only real MFSL "masters" would be the LP lacquers, and I don't think you'd want to have a CD cut from those.

It's the same old question that I keep harping on: What is the "correct" way to handle this material? In 1958, Val Valentin set up mics and equipment to record ONLY THE LONELY in stereo in a way that sounded "correct" to him. Another engineer set up mics and equipment to record ONLY THE LONELY monophonically in a way that sounded "correct" to him. Larry Walsh remixed Val Valentin's three-track tapes in a way that he thought sounded "correct." Others have added reverb, EQ'd things, yada yada. In the end, it's all a matter of somebody's taste.

It is possible that MFSL is using the mono master because of the known problems with the stereo tape, i.e., increased tape hiss, a real shame, because the stereo album is tonally outstanding. One nice thing about the mono master: Back in 1958, FS & company set up in the Capitol Tower to record, and a reel of tape passed over a tape head live in the control room. Those very pieces of tape are what comprise the mono master. No mixdown needed, because it was mixed "live" to mono tape.

Also, MFSL is completely at the mercy of whatever the label is willing to license out to them. It's a negotiation. At times, the well has almost run dry for MFSL in terms of what they were able to license. In about 1986, their new release was a recording of Billie Holiday rehearsing in a hotel room in mono. I'm not kidding. That was about as far from "audiophile" as a recording can be, and a low point for MFSL.

As an aside, my apologies for reposting the announcement about these CDs. I looked in the Announcements section and the Recordings section and did a title search for MOBILE FIDELITY, but not for MFSL. I try to not dirty up the joint! :-)

--Matt

[Chuck Granata]

There is a specific reason why they are issuing the mono version of Only the Lonely. Not only was stereo still experimental for Capitol in 1958 - the choice of tape stock was as well.

Apparently, they used some new recording tape for the stereo recording of Only the Lonely (which, as was explained earlier, was recorded at the same sessions - but with different microphone setups and tape machines). The tape stock they used for the stereo recording was noisier than the mono, thus the mono tapes - which should have a different microphone setup than the stereo mix - are also much quieter.

When Capitol issued the original CD, they tried to dampen the tape hiss on the stereo masters, but it sounds way too processed. Hopefully, the original mono tape - likely untouched since the late 1950s - is pristine, and while not stereo, should offer substantially improved sonics.

[Chuck Granata]

By the way, when Mobile Fidelity issued the Sinatra Capitol LPs in the 1980s, they boasted of using the "Original Master Tapes." What they actually used were the two-track mixdown masters that Capitol used for their original LP issues. They did not go back to the first-generation SESSION reels and remix the albums. Those session reels are truly the "master" tapes, and any reissue should derive from them and NOT the LP masters (certainly not in the CD era). Let's hope that MFSL returns to the three-track session masters and remixes them for the new stereo version of "Nice 'N Easy."

Originally Posted by Chuck Granata

By the way, when Mobile Fidelity issued the Sinatra Capitol LPs in the 1980s, they boasted of using the "Original Master Tapes." What they actually used were the two-track mixdown masters that Capitol used for their original LP issues. They did not go back to the first-generation SESSION reels and remix the albums. Those session reels are truly the "master" tapes, and any reissue should derive from them and NOT the LP masters (certainly not in the CD era). Let's hope that MFSL returns to the three-track session masters and remixes them for the new stereo version of "Nice 'N Easy."

Chuck,

Are the "Nice n' Easy" masters as "dry" as the songs used on The Capitol Singles box set? I hope so because they are just beautiful without the revberb.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by paulmock

Are the "Nice n' Easy" masters as "dry"...

As a bone. All those Capitol 3 tracks need a little echo (relatively more or less depending on the song/album) added when reduced to stereo. Not slathered on like the original stereo mix of say, NICE 'N' EASY (which still sounds amazing overall on the original vinyl, even though the mixes have too much echo).

I've said it before, but it bears repeating - hearing the ONLY THE LONELY in MONO is almost like listening to a different album. I am not exaggerating - the recording sent to the full track mono tape, with its unique multi-mic setup, is VERY different from the different stereo mixes done so far. The two twains will never meet, because they were recorded so differently to begin with.

[Jeffrey Simmons]

Much thanks to Bob, Matt, Martin and Chuck for their kind input responses here, which I very much appreciate. I certainly take the point about not wanting to use the vinyl masters to make cd's.

MSFL were misleading about which masters they used for their early Sinatra LP offerings and let's hope they now are coming clean.

You guys have made clear that the mono version of OTL is sonically different and is going to be a different listening experience, so I would like to hear it for sure. What I said about doing a double CD still stands though because if MSFL (or even Capitol) were able to go back to the original session reels and mix from those directly onto CD, then we should be able to get, with perhaps a little adjustment for tape hiss and perhaps the smallest amount of echo, ther best possible sounding stereo versions which we could then, hopefully favourable, compare with the proposed new CD of the original mono master. Why not?

On a related point, gentlemen, I just visited the MSFL site and they seem to refer to the proposed new 'gold cd' as weighing 1.5 lb. Can that be right? Will it really weight that much?

It's 1 lb. 5 ozs., but that's the same spec as on all of their LP listings. I'm sure it's just copied from a boilerplate listing and is different for CDs. A "gold" CD does not weigh substantially different than a "silver" one.

[Jeffrey Simmons]

Originally Posted by Bob

It's 1 lb. 5 ozs., but that's the same spec as on all of their LP listings. I'm sure it's just copied from a boilerplate listing and is different for CDs. A "gold" CD does not weigh substantially different than a "silver" one.

Thanks Bob for clearing that one up.
Well someone should take issue with MSFL on that for sure. It is totally misleading. I was doubtful if the cd would weigh that much even if it was made with solid gold.

[taylorjy]

Originally Posted by mlutthans

It's the same old question that I keep harping on: What is the "correct" way to handle this material? In 1958, Val Valentin set up mics and equipment to record ONLY THE LONELY in stereo in a way that sounded "correct" to him. Another engineer set up mics and equipment to record ONLY THE LONELY monophonically in a way that sounded "correct" to him. Larry Walsh remixed Val Valentin's three-track tapes in a way that he thought sounded "correct." Others have added reverb, EQ'd things, yada yada. In the end, it's all a matter of somebody's taste.

--Matt

Matt,

The way I understand it is that no one actually engineered the multi's. The lead engineer, presumably John Kraus - who would be doing the mono mix - would get the studio straight with the varying mic set ups for mono/binaural. In the room upstairs the levels would be set on the board and someone would hit the switch and just let it run.

<As a bone.>

Thanks! I love it when they are as dry as my perfect martini. Even some of those cuts on "Nothing But the Best" are nice and dry...leading one to only hope....

[Mark]

Not sure, but I pictured you as a martini man.

Great thread.

[mlutthans]

Originally Posted by taylorjy

Matt,

The way I understand it is that no one actually engineered the multi's. The lead engineer, presumably John Kraus - who would be doing the mono mix - would get the studio straight with the varying mic set ups for mono/binaural. In the room upstairs the levels would be set on the board and someone would hit the switch and just let it run.

Well, if no one engineered the multis, Capitol could have been setting themselves up for a real shock when somebody finally went to mix from the multis! Val Valentin (from Verve Records) was hired to do the job, and he surely played some role or Capitol would have hired a monkey at significant savings. Different mic set-ups were used on the mono and stereo versions, and that's definitely an engineering decision. While no final two-track mixing was done live, each track had to be "engineered" to facilitate two track mixing at a later date, and Mr. Valentin undoubtedly still monitored the output of the channels to make sure that a quality 2-track mix could be made later. Such things are not left to chance. When I go out and record a performance to multi-track, even though I may not be mixing (per se), I still am very definitely "engineering" the recording at that point. Same thing here. "Engineering" a session and "mixing" the tapes are two different-but-related tasks. If the original tracks are defective or otherwise of poor quality, the greatest mixdown engineer in the world can't save recording. Quality has to be assured at both steps.

--Matt

[Rich K]

All this talk about the great Capitol sound on mono makes me cringe a bit since years ago, once I had purchased a stereo, I sold my old Sinatra mono lp's that were also offered in stereo. I can't say I had Only the Lonely at that point, but in college one day some of us were fooling around with the Nelson Riddle album that was a precursor of karaoke (Sing a Song With Riddle). One of my buddies had a reel to reel recorder and let us use one of his old tapes to see how we sounded. I believe the tape were recorded over was a reel to reel version of Only the Lonely in mono; where our recording session ended, there was still some of Frank left and I remember the sound was awesome....clearer sound than I'd ever heard reproduced on a record or any other tape recorder.
Don't know what happened to that tape; I later dubbed off my "wonderful" singing on a cassette.

[MMM]

The way I understood it, the "real" engineer would typically also set things up for the 3 track version, and leave a "second" engineer in the other room, while he sat in the regular control room overseeing the mono during the sesssion. So, to create a situation to illustrate, for something like WHERE ARE YOU?, John Kraus would, besides have things prepared for the mono version he would engineer "live", would also have the stereo mics setup. He'd then leave a second engineer behind the small board in the room where the recording was done for the 3 track version, but would stay in the main control room recording and mixing the mono version "live". Some aural evidence bears this out at times, like things being off mic at times to the point of them being off balance on the 3 track version - for instance, the piano in "Day In, Day Out" on COME DANCE WITH ME!, the vibes in "Brazil" on COME FLY WITH ME, etc. - or actual distortion on parts of the COME FLY WITH ME album, and so on. If that was being monitored by an engineer of the caliber of Val Valentin, and not "just" a second engineer leaving things more or less unchecked after the initial setup, I don't think this would have been left to stand. It sure wasn't for the mono version. Obviously problems like this were more an exception than a rule, but that they happened at all, even just a relatively few times, leaves me to believe this is true.

Now, ONLY THE LONELY seems to be an exception (or at least one exception). Years ago, Chuck Granata told me that he spoke with Val Valentin, who claimed to the engineer the stereo version of the album. It kinda sounds like it to me - it kind of has the character to my ears of an Ella Fitzgerald record of the day recorded at Capitol, which Val did for Verve then (sometimes they'd also record at Radio Recorders, again with Val). I can't quite put into words what I hear, but if you're familiar with the sound, you might understand what I'm trying to get across. I've sometimes wondered if Val just did the old stereo mix, or even both, but I'm *guessing* he really may have recorded the stereo version of this album. Maybe Chuck could detail what Val said better?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Rich K

All this talk about the great Capitol sound on mono makes me cringe a bit since years ago, once I had purchased a stereo, I sold my old Sinatra mono lp's that were also offered in stereo.

Rich, the stereo recordings were by and large great. It's just that they were sometimes quite different from the mono versions, espeically in the relatively earlier era of them recording in stereo. IMO both are valid and interesting and should be heard...

[MMM]

Originally Posted by paulmock

<As a bone.>

Thanks! I love it when they are as dry as my perfect martini. Even some of those cuts on "Nothing But the Best" are nice and dry...leading one to only hope....

Paul, maybe also take a look here (and my post following it)...

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh....php?p=3504008

[mlutthans]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Simmons

MSFL were misleading about which masters they used for their early Sinatra LP offerings and let's hope they now are coming clean.

I'm not sure I would go that far. They did clearly state:

"Source: The Original Stereo Master Tape"

...and that's what they used for all the stereo discs in the SINATRA set. They did not remix from the 3-track session tapes, but they also never claimed to be doing so.

As far as the mono discs go, they should have labeled those:

"Source: The Original Mono Master Tape"

....but I view that merely as a clerical error. Of course, we know that true mono masters were not used on some of the mono LPs in the the SINATRA box, and MFSL *SHOULD* have caught that mistake. In their defense, MFSL was provided by Capitol with tapes labeled "MASTER," and that labeling was done by Capitol Records. (As MMM has outlined elsewhere, Capitol doctored their mono Sinatra LPs around the time Sinatra left the label, and those newly-doctored tapes were labeled "master," as they were meant to replace the former "master" tapes for production purposes. The only mono MFSL LP to use the true un-doctored master tape was the SE/SFYL disc, and as I understand it, this occurred thanks to dumb luck. Both SE and SFYL had new masters created when each became a separate 12" LP around 1960, but since MFSL was re-issuing the earlier combined 12" disc, which had a different catalog number, the correct tapes arrived on their doorstep.)

--Matt

[SinatraFan]

Originally Posted by MMM

Paul, maybe also take a look here (and my post following it)...

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh....php?p=3504008

Thanks for the link, Martin.

[Jeffrey Simmons]

Originally Posted by mlutthans

I'm not sure I would go that far. They did clearly state:

"Source: The Original Stereo Master Tape"

...and that's what they used for all the stereo discs in the SINATRA set. They did not remix from the 3-track session tapes, but they also never claimed to be doing so....
--Matt

Noted Matt.

If there is to be any noticable sonic improvement on any subsequent reissues of the Capitol albums on cd etc, hopefully there will now be the opportunity to go right back to the original session reels and start over from there. It will be interesting for me to see how just much better they can be, assuming these are put into the right hands. I would very much like to compare these to the MFSL cds made from the original mono master tape.

In my view it is perhaps equally urgent to focus on some of the Reprise product on cd which I think suffers from using secondary (for want of a better word) master tapes in order to make the cd's. There is a lack of live presence on many of the Reprise cd's and, having read this thread and others, including those relating to Nothing But The Best, you have all convinced me that noticable improvements could be made by starting over from the original session reels and remixing from these, taking note of course not omit certain inserts and edits that Mr Sinatra had carefully required or agreed to in the first place.