[Rico]

Against Frank. If you search for some of his tunes, he gets left out on the short end of listings for samples of his own songbook. But type in an Elvis or Michael Jackson song and their performances are usually featured at the top. I can understand their trying to offer what's new, but segregating Frank from timeless songs he made famous shows an unscrupulous agenda. And something is very wrong about that, folks.

[Nancy]

There are two sides to this issue. We do stop them from posting unauthorized videos, and I'm glad to see it's working, though very sorry it makes his fans unhappy.

[Rico]

I didn't know there were still copyright issues. Always figured everyone had to get authorization. I typed in All The Way and didn't come upon a Frank original until the 2nd page and that was a duet with Celine Dion.

Even among media listed with authorization, it seems Frank still gets segregated from higher listings and top traffic for tunes that he made immortal. It's almost as if YouTube is trying to hide his legacy or alienate his future fan base.

Among the new generation, you don't see the same adoration with any other legendary musical icon. These are serious new age music fans who respect him and won't just settle for freebies. I've always wanted to buy the Reprise Collection which spans my favorite Sinatra era. But I can't afford it. Maybe someday.

By the way, you might want to out this if it's a bootleg, but I believe this is Frank's best ever live rendition of My Way. In fact, it's so good that it sounds almost just like the original studio recording.

[Marty]

for future reference if one is unsure of a video's legitimacy or status, perhaps it may be a better idea to bring it to the attention of a moderator (all moderator's user names are in bold type) via the forum's private messaging system, rather than linking to it publicy, which kind of defeats the object with regards to unofficial material being disseminated around the web.

While we can of course understand the desire to "share" an interesting find, one of the forum's core values is a respect for copyright protection and the rights of the performer. So I would respectfully ask everyone, that, if in doubt, drop one of us a line, and we'll try to get the okay to share a video or two, thanks for your understanding and co-operation.

[Keith]

Rico I think you would get more enjoyment from buying the (official) DVD's and CD's - you will have a much wider selection of performances, better sound quality and you can buy them individually rather than a box set plus you have something tangible to build up over time...that would be my recommendation anyway.

[Nick_Bradley78]

Also youtube uses complex keywords and alogrithms to rank video content, all automatic, there isn't some guy sitting there deciding who comes on top, like all things on google in fact, who own it.

[Marty]

Originally Posted by Nick_Bradley78

youtube uses complex keywords and algorithms to rank video content

algorithmic key-terms like "kitten", "sleeping" and "cute" I imagine.

[SamMcK]

I actually think it's interesting to look at Facebook page statistics then on Youtube to show how much Franks popularity has sustained compared to his contemporaries in order of the most Facebook "likes".

Frank Sinatra: 2,167,974 "likes"
Ella Fitzgerald: 691,281 "likes"
Dean Martin: 532,801 "likes"
Louis Armstrong: 503,581 "likes"
Nat King Cole: 279,857 "likes"
Tony Bennett: 162,151 "likes"
Bing Crosby: 65,673 "likes"
Sammy Davis Jr: 34,863 "likes"

As you can see on Facebook Frank is far in front of his contemporaries in popularity, I think this is a good example of how recognizable he is to this type of audience.
Frank actually has more fans who like his page then Paul McCartney's, Elton John's and Stevie Wonder's!

[Nancy]

Thank you, Sam. Very cool!

[Nancy]

I guess you weren't really sorry, eh, Rico?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Nancy

I guess you weren't really sorry, eh, Rico?

Gee, that's strange. Why would you say that? I've been a Frank fan since I was a kid. I was merely pointing out what seemed obvious. Since this is such a major issue, why don't you mount a massive lawsuit so that any and all unauthorized content is removed from YouTube? I didn't put it there. And I don't support it.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by SamMcK

I actually think it's interesting to look at Facebook page statistics then on Youtube to show how much Franks popularity has sustained compared to his contemporaries in order of the most Facebook "likes".

Frank Sinatra: 2,167,974 "likes"
Ella Fitzgerald: 691,281 "likes"
Dean Martin: 532,801 "likes"
Louis Armstrong: 503,581 "likes"
Nat King Cole: 279,857 "likes"
Tony Bennett: 162,151 "likes"
Bing Crosby: 65,673 "likes"
Sammy Davis Jr: 34,863 "likes"

As you can see on Facebook Frank is far in front of his contemporaries in popularity, I think this is a good example of how recognizable he is to this type of audience.
Frank actually has more fans who like his page then Paul McCartney's, Elton John's and Stevie Wonder's!

You totally missed my point by taking your interpretation of my post way out of context. Frank has the most prolific selection, but likes don't equal page views. And YouTube features FS low in the page listings for his own tunes and often puts other artist interpretations of his immortal classics above him, which is a joke. This is not a statement of my opinion; rather it's YouTube's sly way of allowing bootlegging but at the same time segregating his popularity, which adds insult to injury. If they do little or nothing to combat copyright infringement, then they might as well list Frank at the top for his own songbook like they do other artists. The purpose of this thread was to point that irony out. But I've been misjudged as if I support bootlegging. Is this still flame war central?

[Ace917]

Rico, I think Nancy was questioning your sincerity because, in the same post that you apologized for posting the link, you went ahead and posted it again.

Not only do we do a disservice to our members by tacitly approving videos (should we not do our job), but guests checking in here may also get that impression, and the flame dims.

We have an obligation to the legacy, all of us. And we have to help those who yet don't quite "get it."

[SamMcK]

Originally Posted by Rico

You totally missed my point by taking your interpretation of my post way out of context. Frank has the most prolific selection, but likes don't equal page views. And YouTube features FS low in the page listings for his own tunes and often puts other artist interpretations of his immortal classics above him, which is a joke. This is not a statement of my opinion; rather it's YouTube's sly way of allowing bootlegging but at the same time segregating his popularity, which adds insult to injury. If they do little or nothing to combat copyright infringement, then they might as well list Frank at the top for his own songbook like they do other artists. The purpose of this thread was to point that irony out. But I've been misjudged as if I support bootlegging. Is this still flame war central?

In my opinion I would say that the number of Facebook likes is a better indicator of how popular an artist is compared to YouTube views. It indicates somewhat more precisely the people that are interested in an artist more easily and listen to that music than it would just by looking at the number of views. Justin Bieber’s “Baby” video has 758 million views; I can tell you now that nowhere near that amount of people has brought a copy of that song! Watching a video is one thing but it’s different to announce to all of your online friends something that you have an interest in such as Frank Sinatra and that person will much more likely own a copy of that work.

I would love for all of Frank’s songs to be at the top of the page listings on Youtube but the truth is that a lot of the results are done regarding the amount of video views and a lot of videos at the top won’t be ol’ blue eyes, they don’t personally choose where the videos are listed. However almost every time I’ve looked for a song recorded by Sinatra that he is associated with he is almost always at the top or at least in the top five results. I’ve just looked at the page results for “Come Fly With Me”, “A Foggy Day”, “Night and Day”, The Lady Is A Tramp” etc. Frank even comes up in front of Bing for "White Christmas"! and this is the case with all of them because he is still so associated with them by the people that watch these videos. You couldn’t really say fairer than that for standards that have been sung by many, many popular singers before and after he recorded his version, in fact for many young people not too familiar with the American songbook, Frank Sinatra is regarded as THE singer of standards.

Also if someone is looking for a song on Youtube most people would already be familiar with the name of the artist(s) associated with it before searching for it. Either way they could just type in the song or artist name on Google in two seconds and read up on it.
I would also have to say is that I think you are looking far too into it when you say Youtube has a sneaky way of allowing bootlegging, there would be no way that they would be able to tell a bootleg from an official release unless it is reported by a user. I wouldn’t know about the unauthorized material because I haven’t tried seeking them out, I don’t believe you support bootlegs but you should know about the forum rules by now. Either way relax, no need to get worked up about it, we’re all Sinatra fans after all!

[Rico]

The purpose of my post was to point out YouTube segregation in the listings which all too often feature other lesser interpretations of his songbook before his own, unlike most other iconic artists. If I was off track in paying him a compliment for an unauthorized clip, I regret that. But talking down to me makes you more of a snob than a moderator.

You can't even say anything nice or helpful around here without being second guessed or taken to task by PC automatons. If indeed we're living in the age of Orwell, this site reflects that. Those who claim to "get it" out of respect for the FS legacy should be busy having these videos removed instead of blaming a fan for the fact that they exist.

[Marty]

Originally Posted by Rico

If I was off track in paying him a compliment for an unauthorized clip, I regret that. But talking down to me makes you more of a snob than a moderator.

You can't even say anything nice or helpful around here without being second guessed or taken to task by PC automatons. If indeed we're living in the age of Orwell, this site reflects that..

at the risk of second guessing, one does have to wonder whether this thread began more as a roundabout method of getting to the last statement above than any honest concern for unauthorised web content.

Rico received nothing but a little friendly advice in this thread as well as some well meant observations from other members but instead chose that oft seen route here of injured disingenuity at the first opportunity, it seems sometimes second guessing simply reinforces our first impressions.

[mymatefrancis]

You Tube is kind of like the junk food supply store and you never know what kind of quality or lack of is there. Sitting back and listening to your own well kept LPs of the Chairman ?
That's creme de la creme !

[David L]

Originally Posted by Rico

The purpose of my post was to point out YouTube segregation in the listings which all too often feature other lesser interpretations of his songbook before his own, unlike most other iconic artists. If I was off track in paying him a compliment for an unauthorized clip, I regret that. But talking down to me makes you more of a snob than a moderator.

You can't even say anything nice or helpful around here without being second guessed or taken to task by PC automatons. If indeed we're living in the age of Orwell, this site reflects that. Those who claim to "get it" out of respect for the FS legacy should be busy having these videos removed instead of blaming a fan for the fact that they exist.

Calm down, bud. This site is OWNED by the Sinatra family. They know about the bogus YouTube (and other similar site) stuff, but there is only so much they can do to fight it.

When I first joined this site, in my very first post I believe, I mentioned another site which unbeknownst to me had published unauthorized FS material. I didn't know that until someone explained it. Once the background was explained to me, I felt horrible for posting it. I don't think anyone here blames you for not knowing. All they ask is you be willing to listen and learn. You have stumbled across the best community for Sinatra fans ANYWHERE....... so just settle down and listen, and learn, and in due time you will understand why the rules here are what they are.

[Nick_Bradley78]

Odd thread. As I said in my post youtube is 99,9% automated, no ones "tacitly supporting bootlegging" nor deliberately mis-ranking someone. Its only when it is raised there's a copyright infringement that humans take over and have to sort it out.

I happen to agree the official Sinatra content on there has been slow off the mark to emerge which has left space for the unauthorised content, probably because so much is owned by different rights holders and the big record companies have always been slow adapting to newish mediums online. There is also the difference between some dude putting up a video of with random pictures covered by a Sinatra song from their collection they happen to like, and releasing unauthorised material through the likes of itunes that you have to pay for. One could give lawyers a fulltime job trawling youtube taking every clip down and the only ones who'd win would be the lawyers (and in fact I believe Universal did that, to much expense and derision). What I found odd was what appeared to be the undertone that there was some sort of youtube conspiracy against Sinatra when in reality like Stan said above, its just a massive dumping ground for anything and everything, some good, some interesting, much of it not.

[Nancy]

Originally Posted by Marty

at the risk of second guessing, one does have to wonder whether this thread began more as a roundabout method of getting to the last statement above than any honest concern for unauthorised web content.

Rico received nothing but a little friendly advice in this thread as well as some well meant observations from other members but instead chose that oft seen route here of injured disingenuity at the first opportunity, it seems sometimes second guessing simply reinforces our first impressions.

Our members understand that this site is different from others regarding Frank Sinatra and our rules are more about protecting his legacy than keeping people in line. Believe me the mods and I have better things to do with our time than having to be "big brother" and incur more expense.

It shouldn't be difficult to figure out what our site is about and to post accordingly. It's a lot more friendly that way.