Jeffrey, just a few points re: specific songs you mentioned:

"Let's Do It (Let's Fall In Love)" – Never released as a single; only appeared in the Can-Can soundtrack album (and not in the film).

"You're Sensational" – The track Chuck used is from the film.

"Soliloquy" – Perhaps the "full" version you're thinking of is the one from Sinatra 80th: Live In Concert?

[MMM]

Originally posted by Ronald Sarbo
The 3 parts still do not comprise a FULL version.

I believe Chuck tried to make a "seamless" recording from those parts but it is still unfortunately incomplete.

Yes, I think Chuck told me the "parts" of Frank's that are on the Hollywood box are considered parts 1 & 2 + 5 & 6. You can hear the transition on Frank's vocal from 5-6, where Frank enters the last section differently than one would if sung straight through "live". Not any fault of the production from Chuck & Didier, just how it has to be due to how it was recorded (the vocal "tracking", aka overdubbing, though to a separate mono tape). John Palladino (the original engineer) told me Frank was having some trouble with it for whatever reason, and decided to put it aside. Thankfully Frank went back to it and we at least have what we do, even though he didn't finish all the "parts". I think it's become my favorite version, even though it's incomplete.

[MMM]

Originally posted by Jeffrey Simmons I can't remember Bob what I was thinking but I think my point was that on the Hollywood set, when it comes to the High Society tracks, Chuck mainly used the recordings that were issued on the soundtrack LP not all the ones fromn the movie. Of course Chuck went on to use new mixes from the high quality elements but as I said these were not exactly all the tracks as they are heard in the Movie. I wondered why "You're Sensational', for example, was not the track from the film, rather than the one from the album? It was my understanding that FS re-recorded the song from the movie soundtrack at Capitol because he was not happy with Johnny Green's arrangement and wanted to redo the song with Riddle. It then turned out that the Capitol recording appeared on the Capitol album. (I do not know how much of that is true or false.)

Sinatra In Hollywood does have the movie version of "You're Sensational". Are you saying your copy of the Hollywood set has the Capitol version of "You're Sensational", Jeffery?

[Jeffrey Simmons]

Originally posted by Ronald Sarbo The 3 parts still do not comprise a FULL version.

I believe Chuck tried to make a "seamless" recording from those parts but it is still unfortunately incomplete.

Ron, I was not talking about Chuck's excellent sounding version on the Hollywood set. I am not saying any of you are wrong - but maintain I am almost positive that the version I once heard was the full Capitol version - irrespective of the number of parts that were badly patched together - I am sure that I would have noticed if a big lump of it were missing - Of course it has been some 20 years or more since I heard it, so the memory can play tricks on me. I will try to check it out but I cannot promise how long it will take.

[Jeffrey Simmons]

Originally posted by MMM Sinatra In Hollywood does have the movie version of "You're Sensational". Are you saying your copy of the Hollywood set has the Capitol version of "You're Sensational", Jeffrey?

What would I do without you guys - you are so knowledgeable, I love it. Now before I say anything else about the Hollywood set I am going to have to sit and spend some more time on the Hollywood box set because you all cannot be wrong - and I only listened to these tracks once and very quickly. I was sure, Martin, that on my LP version of High Society, the 'You're Sensational' track was different from that used in the movie. I believed, because they sounded so very different, that there were two versions - is that not correct? I thought that the track on the box set also sounded different from the movie - so I will listen to it again.

Bob, regarding Soliloquy - this is one of my favourite Sinatra songs. One thing is certain and that is that I did not get confused about the live version which FS did on Sinatra 80th: Live In Concert, a fairly recent release from the mid 1990's. I may now have a little problem remembering some non-commercial recordings which I had heard some 25-30 years ago - but I am not yet quite so far gone as that - thank G-d!

"Let's Do It (Let's Fall In Love)" used to be played on the radio quite a bit when I was very young and I assumed that this was because it was possibly released on a single or EP. Perhaps they merely kept playing the track from the soundtrack album or maybe it appeared on one or two Capitol Sinatra ('Best Of/Very Best Of') type compilations from way, way back and they played the track from that.

[MMM]

Originally posted by Jeffrey Simmons ... on my LP version of High Society, the 'You're Sensational' track was different from that used in the movie. I believed, because they sounded so very different, that there were two versions - is that not correct?

Correct! The High Society soundtrack LP has (at least the US issue LP's) the long Capitol version of "You're Sensational". The short Capitol version was issued as a single. your Hollywood box should have the movie version of this song.

[Jeffrey Simmons]

Martin, thanks for that - I feel redeemed. Now all I need do is listen to the track on the Hollywood box set and I will respond further.

Hi Jeffrey. This is as I stated way back in my original post on the subject:

Originally posted by Bob in Boston First of all, three of the four Sinatra songs were recorded once—and only once—onto 35 mm magnetic film at M-G-M in January 1956. Only "You're Sensational" was re-recorded at Capitol later, in April.

The short 45 rpm single version of "You're Sensational" appears in The Capitol Years (US) 3-disc collection. This MONO version also appears on The Select Cole Porter. It's time-edited down by more than a minute-and-a-half.

Curiously, the complete studio version from the High Society soundtrack LP is found today in The Complete Capitol Singles Collection. Note that this track was recorded before Capitol adopted stereo technology. Therefore, it was remixed into "pseudo" stereo to better match the other three (MGM) tracks on the soundtrack album. Only the original film version in the In Hollywood box is true stereo.

Once again, I urge you to re-read what I wrote (and you commented on) many months ago here in the thread for The Select Cole Porter album.

[Jeffrey Simmons]

Bob, I have the The Capitol Years 3-CD box and the Complete Capitol Singles box but whatever the technical background the reality is that neither of those sets offer sound on those particular High Society tracks that thrills me anything like the way that the original Capitol Soundtrack album did, even on one of my favourite tracks,"Mind If I Make Love To You?". (That's a lovely recording is'nt it?)

If I understand you correctly, on the Singles box, for example, the tracks are apparently in stereo but with some of those tracks, as you point out, 'its a bit hard to tell' for some odd reason. This is probably why I felt that some of the recordings sounded like mono.

The "You're Sensational" track was re-recorded at Capitol Studios in April 1956, and it has not appeared in true stereo on any Capitol issue. Was it made in stereo? The original stereo MGM version from January 1956 and it appears in the Sinatra In Hollywood box set. (The Capitol recording was in my view a great version however.)

The Hollywood Box set does indeed have excellent quality sound on the High Society tracks, (as opposed to the sound on the recordings for several of the other movies included therein - but which was not the fault of Chuck or Didier because the original material was in so poor a condition.)

You say, Bob, that the mixing of all four tracks in the Sinatra In Hollywood box is far superior to anything produced on a Capitol CD. That may well be correct, but I still would have preferred just a little more of that original wider stereo separation which appeared on the original Capitol LP as a matter of personal preference. I guess it comes down to what one likes or what one is used to.

What is clear is that FS had a lot of personal control over the quality and output of his material and he certainly must have listened to and OK'd those original wide stereo mixes. If it was good enough for his critical ears, it is still good enough for mine.

I am trying to find time to listen more intently to the Hollywood box set and I know that I do need to do this - so please bear with me on that as I may have some more queries for Chuck.

Great discussion here lately over the past week! I've just read the postings, and will check my record collection & sources for possible clues re the questions raised (especially the "Well Did You Evah"). Will write back if I detect something.

It's good to know that there are a few other people here who care about all these matters.

Bernhard.

[Jeffrey Simmons]

I have just listened again to the High Society tracks on The Singles box set. I confirm that these are very similar to those on the Capitol Soundtrack album save that the stereo is not quite as wide. On "Well Did You Evah", there are no inserted additional words from Bing as in the film, "You're Sensational" is the longer version of the fabulous Capitol recording, which sounds about the same as on the Capitol Soundtrack album. It is not genuine Stereo, I understand, but to my ears, its sound is more or less acceptable and nothing to complain bitterly about. (I do wonder if it was actually ever recorded in genuine stereo?)

AND/OR

(and here's one perhaps for Chuck Granata)

Is it posssible that there were saved all the separate elements to at least some of the Captiol recordings that have so far only ever been released in mono - and that, therefore, they could perhaps be converted into genuine stereo? Am I expecting too much?

[MMM]

Originally posted by Jeffrey Simmons "You're Sensational" is the longer version of the fabulous Capitol recording, which sounds about the same as on the Capitol Soundtrack album. It is not genuine Stereo, I understand, but to my ears, its sound is more or less acceptable and nothing to complain bitterly about. (I do wonder if it was actually ever recorded in genuine stereo?)

Get an original mono LP of this, and you'll likely never want to hear the fake stereo version again.

Originally posted by Jeffrey Simmons Is it posssible that there were saved all the separate elements to at least some of the Captiol recordings that have so far only ever been released in mono - and that, therefore, they could perhaps be converted into genuine stereo? Am I expecting too much?

Staying with the Capitol version of "You're Sensational", it is mono only - it was recorded only to full track tape. The quality of the original recording is much more important than if it was done in stereo or not. Thankfully it was recorded well. Don't fear mono!

AFAIK, every song that had been recorded of Frank at Capitol that had a 3-track successfully recorded of it, has been issued in stereo somewhere, except for possibly the '57 "If You Are But a Dream". I don't even know if 3-tracks exist of that, but I'm guessing they do, since the other songs from the session have been issued in stereo. However, sometimes unused things have a way of getting lost. Hopefully these 3-tracks, if they ever existed at all, are not lost to the ages...

[Jeffrey Simmons]

Thanks kindly Martin, that answers the question. I love all of the mono FS recordings on Capitol, but if it is possible to hear any of them in high quality genuine stereo then I am interested.

Chuck and Bob, I shall now take myself a slice of humble pie because I can now confirm that after a period of some years - in this case around 30 years - the mind is playing tricks on me.

After some research backwards in time, I must tell you that I can find absolutely no evidence whatsover that I ever heard the full Capitol version of SOLILOQUY. I now doubt that I ever did hear the full version.

What I have discovered, however, is that the vocal recording was made - don't ask me why - in 6 parts. It is my belief that parts 1 & 2 and parts 5 & 6 were utilised to comprise the recording which Chuck has so brilliantly put together with an orchestral track on the Hollywood Box Set. Parts 3 & 4 are missing and in all probablility they were never recorded by FS at all, as has been stated above by Chuck Granata and Bob. If anyone would know, they would.

What does exist for certain is an alternative version of part 6, but Chuck may confirm that when he examined all the Capitol Soliloquy tapes, there were other alternate bits and pieces.

I move on to what was a very unfortunate omission for the box set which was the FS (and Shirley Jones) recording of "If I Loved You". A beautiful soft, tender version by FS of that recording made for the film Carousel certainly does exist, but for some reason Chuck, as he has explained, could not acquire the legal rights, or possibly also the tapes, so as to be able to include this lovely recording within the Hollywood Box Set.

I realise that this is a subject referred to earlier but I would like to know, if I may, a little more detail as to why it was impossible to obtain the rights to release this song? Who owns the tapes and the rights and for what reason were they against releasing it. What possible reasonable objection could they have.
Also, if the owners of the tapes (I presume the Studio) of this song are holding them, then the question arises, could they possibly be holding anything else that we do not yet know about?

[shicorp]

I move on to what was a very unfortunate omission for the box set which was the FS (and Shirley Jones) recording of "If I Loved You". A beautiful soft, tender version by FS of that recording made for the film Carousel certainly does exist, but for some reason Chuck, as he has explained, could not acquire the legal rights, or possibly also the tapes, so as to be able to include this lovely recording within the Hollywood Box Set.

Hello Jeffrey,

the recording you are refering to, is not a Capitol recording, but a soundtrack recording done at Twentieth Century Fox (under the baton of the legendary Alfred Newman). As Chuck has pointed out numerous times before, Fox, for whatever reasons, did not support the "FS In Hollywood" project and the duet (as well as several other pre-recordings for "Carousel", that may exist in the Fox vaults), is therefore not present on the set.
Ironically, a recent Fox issue of the "Three Coins In The Fountain" soundtrack through Varese Sarabande also did not include the title song. Perhaps this is the countermove of having not given the licence of that song for the Hollywood set - who knows? I doubt, however, that any of the recordings are lost, as Fox has put some power into preserving their vintage music elements (unlike most of the other studios!).

[Jeffrey Simmons]

Hi Stefan,

I never throught that "If I Loved You" was actually a Capitol recording and I was aware that it was made at and for the Studio. Mind you, all studios generally lend out or rather rent out their films or excerpts and sound recordings from their back catalogues either for re-releases or documentaries or other compilations - that's generally their business - to make profit from their vaults - and indeed the soundtrack shelves of most record stores are usually full of movie compilation albums and sets comprising bits from one studio or another. So perhaps it all goes a little deeper. I would bet that Chuck Granata (I love that name) will either know or have some idea as to the actual reason for the objection.

Since we have a "Mozart year" in 2006, and today celebrating his 250th anniversary, it might be the right time to highlight track #21 on CD #2 of this here glorious CD-Box, which pairs Sinatra and Kathryn Grayson singing "Là Ci Darem La Mano", an original duet from Mozarts "Don Giovanni".

Check out the article I posted at the general FS section at Frankly Amadeus.


Bernhard.

[Chuck Granata]

For the next few posts I will quote the questions/comments in regular type, and my answers in CAPS. For some reason, I cannot get the program to either quote or bold face the type...Chuck

Jeff wrote:

When it comes to the High Society tracks, Chuck mainly used the recordings that were issued on the soundtrack LP not all the ones fromn the movie.

NOT EXACTLY. WE USED THE RECORDING ELEMENTS THAT M-G-M RECORDED FOR THE FILM. ALL WERE FROM THE MOVIE ITSELF. THE ONLY RE-RECORD FOR CAPITOL WAS "YOU'RE SENSATIONAL." IF I RECALL, "YOU'RE SENSATIONAL" WAS THE ONLY RE-RECORDING USED ON THE CAPITOL SOUNDTRACK LP. EVERYTHING ELSE WAS FROM THE M-G-M FILM RECORDINGS.

Of course Chuck went on to use new mixes from the high quality elements but as I said these were not exactly all the tracks as they are heard in the Movie.

CORRECT. FOR INSTANCE, ON THE HOLLYWOOD SET WE DID NOT USE THE ORCHESTRAL INTRO TO "WELL, DID YOU EVAH," SO IT SOUNDS LIKE IT DIFFERS FROM THE FILM BUT IT DOES NOT. THE REASON WE DID NOT INCLUDE IT IS BECAUSE SOME OF THE ORCHESTRAL CUES (SUCH AS THIS INTRO) ARE MISSING. NOT EVERY CUE FOR A SONG IN A FILM IS RECORDED AT THE SAME TIME, AND THERE ARE SOMETIMES HUNDREDS OF CUES.

WE TRIED LIFTING THE INTO FROM THE EDITED FILM, AND FROM THE LP, BUT SINCE IT SOUNDED SO DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE WERE MIXING WE DECIDED NOT TO INCLUDE IT.

I wondered why "You're Sensational', for example, was not the track from the film, rather than the one from the album? It was my understanding that FS re-recorded the song from the movie soundtrack at Capitol because he was not happy with Johnny Green's arrangement and wanted to redo the song with Riddle. It then turned out that the Capitol recording appeared on the Capitol album. (I do not know how much of that is true or false.)

THE VERSION OF "YOU'RE SENSATIONAL" ON THE HOLLYWOOD SET IS INDEED THE ONE RECORDED FOR THE FILM. WE DID NOT USE THE CAPITOL RE-RECORDING.

Conversely, however, when it came to 'Pal Joey', Chuck so far as possible prefered using the recordings which actually came from the movie track and not only the recordings that eventually appeared on the Soundtrack album - notwithstanding its shortcomings. This is what i thought was interesting and I wanted to learn the reason for this.

AGAIN, OUR GOAL WAS TO PRESENT THE FILM RECORDINGS AS THEY APPEARED IN THE FILMS. THE ONLY TIME WE DEVIATED FROM THIS WAS WHEN WE EITHER COULDN'T LOCATE ORIGINAL ELEMENTS, OR IF THE RECORDINGS WERE DAMAGED.

MORE TO FOLLOW...

[Chuck Granata]

Bob wrote:

Chuck went back to the original film masters for these songs (except "Mind If I Make Love To You," which was unavailable).

THE MAG FILM RECORDINGS FOR "MIND IF I MAKE LOVE TO YOU" WERE DAMAGED. APPARENTLY, THE MAGNETIC FILM WAS PARTIALLY ERASED, AND THE FIRST MINUTE OR SO OF THIS SONG WAS UNUSABLE (THE VOLUME FLUCTUATED FROM NOTHING TO FULL VOLUME, AS IF SOMEONE HAD PUT THE FILM REEL ON TOP OF A SPEAKER OR ANOTHER STRONG MAGNET.) WE TRIED SPLICING THE FIRST MINUTE IN FROM OTHER SOURCES (THE LP, AND THE EDITED 2-TRACK MIX FROM THE FILM) BUT THE DIFFERENCE IN SOUND BETWEEN THOSE SOURCES AND WHAT WE WERE MIXING WAS JUST TOO GREAT. IN THE END WE USED THE 2-TRACK MIX THAT M-G-M MADE FOR THE EDITED FILM.

[Chuck Granata]

Jeff wrote:

Now either my memory is playing tricks with me or I'm very wrong but my recollection is that I have heard the FULL Capitol recording of Soliloquy. It was in three distinct recorded parts put together but not spliced into one recording. I was very young and in the 1970's some old collector I once met played it to me or maybe even gave it to me. I could almost swear that I have heard this before and, who knows, I might even have it somewhere - although do not count on me finding it soon. Are you certain that a full recording was never made and if so what could I possibly have heard? (Note - it was not the Columbia or Reprise versions - because I know these far too well)

A BOOTLEG OF THE "SOLILOQUY" SESSION AT CAPITOL HAS FLOATED AROUND FOR YEARS. IT HAS AT LEAST TWO OF THE THREE PARTS, AND SOME OF THE ALTERNATE ATTEMPTS. IT WAS NEVER COMPLETE. IT WAS NEVER EDITED PROPERLY UNTIL WE DID SO FOR THE HOLLYWOOD SET. FROM ALL DOCUMENTATION FRANK DID NOT COMPLETE THE MISSING VOCAL SECTIONS. YOU ARE CORRECT, JEFF THAT THERE ARE SOME ALTERNATE TAKES - ESPECIALLY ON THE ORCHESTRAL BACKINGS. THEY DON'T DIFFER MUCH FROM WHAT WE PRESENTED AS THE CHOICE TAKES ON THE HOLLYWOOD SET...

[Ronald Sarbo]

The new updated and expanded version of the Rhino "That's Entertainment" box set now contains 4 selections from "High Society" which I believe are in binaural or 2-track stereo:

"Well Did You Evah", "You're Sensational", "True Love", and "Now You Has Jazz".

"Well Did You Evah" also contains Bing's line: "You must be one of the newer fellas" which bridges the 2 sections of the recording.

So we now have on CD a stereo version which is "complete".