[FRANKIE1915]

Way to go Miami Heat!

[Nancy]

Congratulations!

[FRANKIE1915]

The Heat is on!

[FRANKIE1915]

Cookie & Taffy wearing their Miami Heat jersey

[FRANKIE1915]

Great feeling of satisfaction when you've worked so hard to achieve
your dreams.

[FRANKIE1915]

My daughter Lissette and husband Rick

[Fred F]

Growing up there, the loss of the Dodgers was like a pall over the whole borough. It was akin to a death in the family that was still being mourned, and that no one ever forgot. I joke with my wife that if I knew that big time pro sports was coming back to Brooklyn, I (we), never would have moved to NJ.

[ARIES3032]

This pasrt week Ravens beat Colts , who were a Balktimore team orginally and won, hope the Ravens get into the Super Bowl!

[sschweiger]

Good to see your post, Fred! The Nets are better than having no team! My Family has never recovered! Many became Metropolitan fans; a few even deigned to travel regularly to The Bronx, and masquerade as Yankee supporters! Our Connecticut cousins (very lovely people) moved their Dodger allegiance to LA--my Great-Aunt Yetta always said, "What do THEY know? They belong to a REFORMED TEMPLE!"

[Fred F]

My Dad never stopped being a NY Giant baseball (and football for that matter) fan....since he grew up in Manhattan. He took me to a few Yankee games before the Mets materialized, including that Oct 1st game in 1961, when Raja hit # 61. I still have the scorecard from that famous game. Even with that, as soon as a new National League team came to town, we never went back to Yankee Stadium. He made me into a Met fan, and I suffered with them until Seaver showed up.

I remember going to a lot of Met games by bus with my uncle's congregation. What incredible fun we had at the games, even though the Mets were atrocious in the 62-66 timeframe. I think very few Dodger fans remained as such when they abandoned Brooklyn, even though they were a very good team out there. The won the World Series in 1959 (vs the White Sox) and in 1963 (vs the Yankees) and again in 1965 vs the Twins. That was the famous series when Sandy Koufax said "I will not pitch on Yom Kipper" . He still wound up winning two games in the series (including the clincher) and gained everyone's admiration for taking that stand.

[Fred F]

Any hoop fanatics out there? I'm a hoops fanatic in the truest sense of the word. I run my own fantasy basketball league (have done so for the past 15 years). I have hundreds of spreadsheets with thousands of stats, records etc.

If anyone wants to chew the fat about hoops, just throw it out there.

[sschweiger]

Fred -- I think my NBA "fanaticism" days are behind me, but I still love to talk hoops with the "seniors" at the Springfield JCC! Our latest points of discussion are LeBron & Kobe, and where they stand in the "pantheon." My all-time top ten, until recently, has been:
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Oscar
West
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Elgin
Pettit

The questions, in my mind, are: "Do LeBron &/or Kobe belong?", "Why do they belong?", and if so, "Whom do they replace?"

[Fred F]

Does LeBron just win one championship in his career? If so, is he just another Oscar Robertson- great career, but not many titles. Number of championships definitely counts in hoops. It's only a five player game, so winning and losing counts when rating someone's career much more in hoops than baseball (9 guys) or football (22 starters). I think Bill Russell is always rated higher that Wilt Chamberlain, since he won 11 titles and Wilt only 2. But Wilt did such incredible things, like scoring 100 point in a game, averaged 50 ppg for an entire season.He also won seven scoring, nine field goal percentage titles, and eleven rebounding titles, and once even led the league in assists. Chamberlain is the only player in NBA history to average at least 30 points per game and 20 rebounds in a season, and he did that nine times. He is also the only player to average at least 30 points and 20 rebounds per game over the entire course of his NBA career.

But Russell has the rings. Now, did Russell have better players around him that helped make winning those championships possible? The answer is definitely "Yes". Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, K.C. Jones, and Tom Heinsohn made huge contributions to those titles.

So, how much to do you factor in the players who played with the great ones when comparing who was the better player? I don't know, but if your list is in order, then it looks like you don't agree with that theory. While you do have Russell over Chamberlain, you ranked Oscar Robertson (one measley title) over Michael Jordan (six titles). And Oscar never sniffed a title until he teamed with Kareem Abdul Jabaar. It's also true that Jordan always had Pippen with him, so that helped him win his six titles.

Regarding Kobe, he's already got 5 titles, but then again, he had Shaq with him for the first three titles. But the titles in 2009 and 2010 were mostly all Kobe.

So, I think Kobe definitely belongs on the top ten, knocking out Pettit. I also think that Shaq HAS to be in the top ten, probably knocking out the winless Elgin Baylor. Shaq had 4 titles and won three Finals MVP and three regular season MVP's. He ranks 6th all-time in points scored, 5th in field goals, 13th in rebounds, and 7th in blocks.

So my top 10 would include, Kobe, Shaq and very likely Lebron....though I can't see knocking Bird, Magic or West out of the top 10 to make room for Shaq or James. We need a "Top 11"

[Dina]

I'm not arguing with you Fred but, was Shaq really that good or was he just so big that nobody could stop him?
He was definitely the worst free throw shooter I've ever seen!

[Fred F]

Not that sports arguments are bad, but I sort of agree with you. Shaq certainly wasn't a highly skilled shooter. But Bill Russell was an horrendous shooter in terms of field goals, with an anemic lifetime 440 FG%. Shaq's FG% was .551. Of course, Shaq free throw average was a pathetic .452, will Russell's was also a weak .561 FT%. So if the acknowledged greatest player of all time was a weak shooter, can we throw Shaq out for the same shortcoming?

I think he's a "top 10" of all-time, but LeBron and that Thunder fella, Kevin Durant, will probably knock him out of there one of these days.

[Dina]

I didn't get to see Chamberlin or Russell in their primes but, IMO, Kareem was the best center I've ever seen.

[sschweiger]

Fred--good thoughts! I had neglected to tell you that they were in no particular order -- just grouping the centers, guards, and forwards. I think Pettit is the most "vulnerable" to be replaced by Kobe. I'm not replacing either of the three big men with Shaq, but remember this is my personal list, although "Basketball Digest," other pubs, and a host of "experienced" writers agreed with me. Now with those writers having retired and/or passed away, I would like to see some revised and updated lists. An important point here, Fred, is that the number of championships don't play a role in the decision-making process -- these greats have always been grouped for their individual talents.

When you start with an 11th or 12th player, and start discussing players such as Shaq, Dr. J, Hondo, Cousy, etc., things get a bit more complex. For years, The Original Ten, seemed to be a "gimmee," moreso as close to an objective list as you could find. Now, with the passing years, a reappraisal, would be a fun idea!

[Fred F]

"An important point here, Fred, is that the number of championships don't play a role in the decision-making process -- these greats have always been grouped for their individual talents."

Not sure I agree with that statement. In most ranked list (1-10) that I saw, Russell has consistently been ranked ahead of Wilt Chamberlain, the reason cited usually is the 11 championships. If you're going strictly by skills, you would need three categories, since you can't really compare the skills of a Michael Jordan with those of a Bill Russell, for instance. You'd need categories for passers (point guards), shooters(small forwards and guards) and rebounders (power forwards and centers), which is what you did on your list. And if you are going just on skills, I think Chamberlain and Kareem would beat out Russell.

[Nancy]

Almost ran smack into Shaq the other day checking in and he was coming out. It was like meeting a Sequoia! What a sweet, sweet man he is, couldn't have been nicer to me, "Oh! You're THAT Nancy!"

[sschweiger]

Good point, Fred! My "list" isn't based on specific skills. Those are the ten names that have always come to mind in discussions of the greatest players, at least, among my friends, acquaintences, basketball guides, broadcasters I've known, and other assorted "mavens" of the hardwood! I remember a fascinating interview with Russell, about eight years ago, that was conducted by Mike Francesa and Chris Russo on 'FAN. They had him on for an hour (a hell of a lot longer than when he played!), and when it was over, Mike referred to Russell as "a basketball genius!" Always remember that tag!