Frank Sinatra
Response To Comments
Thank you all for your support on this issue.
Regarding pirates:
FYI the RIAA is very aware of this problem.
In fact, before 9/11 they were focusing on mobs that have warehouses to burn thousands of CD's a day! Many of this product is also sold at flea-markets & swap meets.
We have signed affidavits on several titles they sent us to verify they were unauthorized.
However, this is a case where the public is well aware of what they are buying is a rip-off; similar to fake watches & purses. The buyer needs only to stop buying this stuff and most of it will go away.
Posted by: Nancy | Mar 22, 2002 9:06 AM | 
Comments(18)
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pal joey says:
Mar 22, 2002 9:41 AM
Hi Nancy,
Thank you for the info. I'm glad to know that somebody is looking into this matter, although the pirate CD "vendors" still operate under the noses of uniformed policemen who don't bother to even warn them to stop or move on. That's the case in NYC, at least.
Unfortunately, as long as the major record labels continue to raise the price of CDs, music fans will continue to buy from these criminals. The industry is driving would-be customers away from record stores and towards the pirates and file-sharing programs like Napster and Morpheus. But that's another subject, I suppose....
Thanks again,
Pal Joey
selena65 says:
Mar 22, 2002 10:15 AM
Hi Pal Joey,
Respectfully, what do the prices of CD's in record stores have to do with someone stealing music and video and selling them as legitimate, or someone burning tons and tons of CDS off a 'real cd' and selling those as 'studio released'. I usually shop at Borders and the CD's are around 11.99-18.99 and that doesn't seem too bad, especially as I know it's a real 'studio released' authorized product and produced for legitimate sale and guaranteed to be of good quality( and if not, I can return it). I don't know about Napster/Morpheus..never tried it..do they pay a fee to the studios/artists to play the music and do users pay a fee to listen or download?
Again, respectfully! :)
Selena
pal joey says:
Mar 22, 2002 10:50 AM
Hi Selena,
Unfortunately, most people don't care about the legality of a product, or who's getting the money and who's getting screwed. They just see that CDs, which cost about $15 a couple of years ago, now go for $19 or $20, and they feel that the record companies are screwing THEM. And I'd have to agree.
I don't buy from the pirates, and I don't download stuff from Morpheus -- which does NOT give the artist or record company any royalties. But I understand the motivation of those who do. The record companies are pricing themselves into extinction, especially with the newest generation of record buyers, the kids.
Adults have an extra $12-17 to spend on a Sinatra CD. A pre-teen with very limited disposable income doesn't have $18.99 plus sales tax to spend on a Britney Spears CD, and since the major labels have decided that singles aren't profitable enough, the kid can't buy the song he or she wants for a few bucks. Which leads the kid directly to the pirates and the file-sharing programs, AWAY from the record stores and away from legitimate CDs.
The entire music industry is suffering terribly right now, and Frank's record companies, as well as his family, are not immune. A quick and effective solution to the problem of piracy has to come about soon, before the record business as we know it ceases to exist. The bootleg industry is, for the most part, a very specialized market catering to a few thousand hardcore collectors and isn't nearly as big a problem as piracy. Of course, there are bootleggers who try to pass off their goods as legitimate, and they really do pose a problem. Still, piracy doesn't get nearly as much attention as it should, which is part of the reason why I'm babbling like this!
Pal Joey :)
selena65 says:
Mar 22, 2002 11:20 AM
Thanks Joey for telling me where you are coming from...now I'm going to stop here as I don't do well at this discussion..but the way I feel and always have felt is.....bootlegging/pirating is wrong!
Selena
ELIZABETH says:
Mar 22, 2002 11:29 AM
The decision is actually ours. If we don't buy from bootleggers and pirates, their business is "history". Boycott bootlegged and pirated products, and that's the end of bootlegging and piracy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In regard to legitimate, legally sold CDs in record stores, the customer always has the right not to buy if they believe the price is unfair. That would drive down the cost of CDs, however, it may also fatally harm the recording industry. If they weren't losing customers to bootleggers and pirates in the first place, perhaps the recording industry would be doing much better, and they could then afford to reduce their prices and sell more.
pal joey says:
Mar 22, 2002 4:24 PM
Hi Elizabeth,
I'm not sure whether most people debate the legality of the pirate discs before they buy them, or if they just think, "Hey, I'm getting a great deal here!" I'd assume that those who copy CDs or buy pirated copies on principle ARE protesting the high prices of legitimate CDs. I agree, of course, that people shouldn't buy them, don't get me wrong!
As for the industry lowering their prices if business was better, 1997-2000 were record-breaking years in terms of both dollar amount and number of units sold, but prices still went up on new releases by 25-30%. It is the major labels' greed that has led to the dire situation the music industry is in.
Pal Joey :(
gerald says:
Mar 23, 2002 5:40 PM
Very good idea Nancy. We should boycot any bootleg product, like that a big part of the bootleged products will disappear.
ELIZABETH says:
Mar 24, 2002 5:34 PM
Pal Joey,
I was away a few day and just read Your message.
Perhaps the larger, more successful Record Labels could create an educational ad campaign to address the issue of bootlegging and piracy to the public at large, on both radio and television. They could feature some of their brightest Stars in the ads, who would speak directly to the listening/viewing audience, regarding the cold, hard facts about bootlegging and piracy and what it is doing to Artists, the innocent Customers of bootlegging and piracy, and the Music Industry.
pal joey says:
Mar 25, 2002 9:45 AM
Elizabeth and Selena,
The world would definitely be a better place if there were more people like you! I truly admire your decency and values.
I, alas, am a cynical guy (although a nice one, I hope), and Elizabeth, my first instinct is to think that an educational campaign by the record companies would do more harm than good. Can you imagine someone like Mariah Carey telling people that pirates take millions of dollars away from her? She's already got more millions than she knows what to do with! Same thing with the record companies -- even with pirates ripping them off for tens of millions of dollars annually, they're still a multi-BILLION dollar industry.
What the industry really should do is give people more value for their money. Take the Sinatras as an example. When they released the $30 gold discs on Artanis, a lot of people cried "Ripoff!" Especially since stuff like the "'57 In Concert" disc had been available for less money on bootlegs for years. But you don't hear anyone complaining about a stellar piece like "Rat Pack Live At The Sands," which goes for a much more reasonable $17.99. Still a little pricey, in my opinion, but not more so than any other new release out there. And certainly great value for the money!
Making copy-protected CDs, where you can only make one digital copy of each disc, is a great way to combat piracy. Releasing the best bootleg material legitimately is a great way to get rid of bootleggers. The Sinatras are doing this, even if they're not doing it fast enough for some fans. But the best way to get more people back into record stores, I think, is to simply lower the prices.
Pal Joey
selena65 says:
Mar 25, 2002 10:32 AM
Hi Joey and Elizabeth..
I like Elizabeth's idea about record companies helping to educate the public ...and Joey I see where you are coming from...maybe they could make commericials that showcase the family members of artists who have passed or let studio musicians talk about it.....people that would be more relatable to the general public...people who truly feel the impact of bypassed royalites and unregulated distribution of their own or their family members work. (not that the artist doesn't feel it too, it's just as you mentioned Joey, the public may not be interested in hearing this from a current star with a multi-million dollar contract and/or a hefty golden parachute if their contract is cancelled)
About the $30 Gold discs..I know, I have thought that was high too, but after reading many postings here at the Forum..perhaps the family had to pay alot of money to retrieve or buy-back the bootleg tapes? And that is why they had to charge more for the gold disc?
Thanks Selena!
ELIZABETH says:
Mar 25, 2002 12:00 PM
Dear Pal Joey And Selena,
Thank You for the compliment, Pal Joey. I think both of You make good points. I wasn't referring to the brightest stars speaking in their own personal behalf, rather, generally, in behalf of the entire Music Industry. I should have made that point clearer. I just figured that the audience might stop and listen to them because of their Star stature. The ad campaign could work similar to an anti- substance abuse ad campaign. People really listen to their Heros. Selena, You make a good point regarding the ad campaign educators being Family Members of the bootlegged/pirated Artist. I would be concerned, however, that the listening/viewing audience might misconstrue the Family Members' concern as a mercenary desire for personal gain from a monetary inheritance, rather than for all the real reasons that we have been educated about here on this web site. I don't know! I'm open to more thoughts! Thank You!
selena65 says:
Mar 25, 2002 12:52 PM
HI Elizabeth..
I know ..the more you think about a campaign of this nature, the tougher it gets. You are right, people really pay attention to and follow the 'stars'...yet there is alot of cynicism out there..so people might laugh at the ads AND the star...like 'get real' or something......and unfortunately as you mentioned, people may laugh at a family member or think they are only after $$$$, instead of protecting the work.
Again, it's tough...it's hard for people to reconcile that the music industry (or CD sales) is/are suffering when certain artists seem to earn so, so much money - not that it's a bad thing, capitalism is good, but people might feel that if the stars were paid less money, CDS could be less expensive and more people could/would buy them. Also like Joey mentioned about Singles - I miss those...I would be glad to pay $4 or $5 for one or two songs I really liked instead of $18.99 for 2 songs out of 10 that I like..
And maybe record stores could start an education program and place information signs around the various CD/Video bins...and place in conspicuous public view a company statement that says they do not buy, sell or re-sell bootlegged or pirated material....and what to look for and how to avoid it and ask customers to bring anything that is found in their store and looks suspicious to their atttention..then they could backtrack the source of the CD or Video and share that information with authorities.
Thanks Selena
ELIZABETH says:
Mar 25, 2002 7:35 PM
Hi, Selena,
I agreee with You that record stores would be an excellent place to educate the public about bootlegging and piracy.
If an educational ad campaign were to approach the subject very seriously, briefly and clearly stating the facts, it could work. It would reach a large audience. In addition to Radio and TV, educational ads could be printed in Music magazines.
pal joey says:
Mar 26, 2002 7:12 PM
Hi Guys,
I think it's wonderful that we're having this discussion. It's a shame the major labels didn't discuss it for so long.
If you remember, a couple of years ago the band Metallica went public against Napster and, I believe, filed a successful lawsuit against them. The result, however, was that they were villified both in the press and by their fans. As a result, they're significantly LESS popular now than they were before speaking out, and there are loads of websites out there with testimony from former fans who say they'll never spend money on a Metallica CD again.
It's tough for someone who's made a ton of money in the music business to complain about being ripped off. It's the less successful musicians, the independent labels, and the smaller retailers who get hurt the most, but they don't have the marquee value that a "name" artist has when making a case against piracy or bootlegging.
If we brainstorm enough, hopefully WE can come up with something! Who knows, maybe this forum can help put an end to this criminal activity....
A hopeful Pal Joey
selena65 says:
Mar 27, 2002 8:03 AM
Hi Joey and Elizabeth!
Here is a dumb question. Have record labels thought of creating their own Music Download Websites? (if they already have, then please ignore all of this) :) :)
This way, for a fee, customers could log in to the actual label site and download songs or entire 'albums' and pay for it..I guess you would have to charge less than a store bought CD..but at least the record company would get the money and then they could also distribute royalites, etc. to whomever is owed them.
And record companies could maybe start buying up bootlegs (if they don't already) or post 'bootleg/pirate' amnesty day offers on their sites...you know, if you have this material, please contact us, we will buy it (but not pay alot of money) and then we will take the bootleg and clean it up, 'legalize' it if possible, and sell the download on the record label site and again distribute royality moneys as well as (hopefully) make a profit.
Hopefully there could be some kind of technology or 'code' within the download that only allows it to be written once to a CD...that way...you purchase the download and in affect only purchase one CD....and you wouldn't be able to make additional copies of it.
If the record companies could have this...less expensive online downloading of 'albums' as well as the standard in-store CD sales....plus offer to buy up all of the junk out there and legalize it if possible ( and again..not pay alot of money for these things unless it is something really special)...maybe the bootlegging and pirating would start to go away...if the record companies seem to 'embrace' it and 'take charge' of it, and it wasn't a kind of secret, under the table game anymore?
Thanks Selena!
pal joey says:
Mar 28, 2002 9:39 PM
Hi Selena,
Experiments are underway with legal versions of Napster, where you pay to download a song or album. Nobody, however, is satisfied with the results so far. Either the systems don't have enough material to download, or the sound isn't great, or you can only listen to the file without downloading it ... there are a million drawbacks right now that have to be figured out.
My main problem with this "solution" is that it leaves music retailers out in the cold. I prefer going into a store and actually interacting with other human beings to sitting at my computer clicking a mouse. I also like getting a CD with a booklet and artwork and a disc that I didn't have to burn myself. Does anyone else feel the same way, or is it just me?
Pal Joey
selena65 says:
Mar 29, 2002 5:56 AM
Hi Joey,
I agree with you! I love to go to the book/cd/video store and just stroll around and look thru the bins and read songs lists..I too would rather buy my music that way.
Maybe if they ever perfect the downloading of music to CD, they could offer this ONLY IN the record stores! This way you could choose - purchase a ready made, beautifully packed CD - or 'make your own' in the store...and the record companies and artists still get paid and the record store makes some money too!
Selena :)
ELIZABETH says:
Apr 1, 2002 11:09 AM
I agree with You both, Selena and Pal Joey.
I was wondering if the RIAA would be able to create a powerful anti-bootlegging/piracy ad campaign?????